AGM 2011
The annual AGM of the Connemara Pony Breeders Society took place yesterday, Sunday 3rd of April, in the Westwood Hotel in Galway. Following the various reports, elections were held to fill the six vacancies on Council. Those elected were as follows: Padraic Heanue, John Varley, Padraic Hynes, Frank Quinn, John Joe O’Neill, and Michael Laffey.
The main discussions centred on the recent colt inspections which engendered a lively debate. Interest will now focus on the new Council’s first meeting, when the officers for the coming year will be elected, including a new President as Dermot Power has completed his three-year term.
After attending the AGM meeting on Sunday, I’m disappointed that the whole meeting was centred around the colt inspection, although very important to people who spent a lot of money and time preparing their ponies for the inspection, we have to wait an see how this system pans out, hopefully the Autumn will provide more statistician, to those involved. I just found Henry O’ Toole had to keep repeating himself over and over again. But he mentioned something of interest that Grade A show jumpers should be allowed Grade 1 Status, this is a great idea as if the “Colt” doesn’t conform to breed standard in the opinion of the inspectors who stand before him, let the colt prove them wrong and show that he had the talent to bring the breed forward in the performance sector, by becoming a Grade A show jumper! Simple the breeder/owner was right and then they are happy the line of inspectors cannot turn him away.
Issues that I felt were left out or only got a quick over look where
Inbreeding: lets face it yes the average is under the required percentage laid out we are told, but what seemed to slip the mind on the council member answering to this is the Conneamra Pony is a young breed in regarded register stock, we don’t have the lines available to us like the TB and Arabs, let us the Connemara Pony breeders lead the way in set a new level of suitable inbreeding nothing above 4%, remember just over 6% is a first cousin mating! Inbreeding leads to health problems, abnormalities and effects the hardiness of the animal which the Connemara is renowned for. We have to act fast on this before its to late.
Over use of Stallions:
Carna bobby and Abbeyleix Owen to name two have changed the face of the Connemara for ever, we have had advantages but all be it disadvantages, the have increased the rate of inbreeding and are in the back breeding of overwhelming number of ponies. Count the number of registered progeny not a lot compared to stallions of today, some of which are breeding over 100 foals per annum, the effect this will have in years to come does not bare thinking about, A cap should be put in place on the number of mares a stallions is allowed to cover in a season. To save the lines from being narrowed further, in an ideal world if a mare is bred in the “blue” line let her be covered by a “red”, “orange” 7rl line stallion.
Are we breeding ponies or horses!
Although nothing against an over sized pony, they are required and will contribute in the performance arena, should they be standing top of the line at some of the biggest Connemara shows? Peoples perception is influenced by the results of these shows, and class winners, A Mare will influence the type people breed and a stallion will be covering to the last the following season. All I can say is I’m delighted that the two main shows held in Connemara saw “Ponies” crowed “Supreme Champions” of the show. The 13.2 who is within the breed standards will suffer more discrimination than a 15.2 ! Why? We breed other animals long with ponies and if they are noticed to be over size as per breed standard at individual inspection you are measured and asked to leave the ring, if proven to be.
Colour:
The Connemara gets greyer and greyer, and why because they are seen to be winning the major show classes, people want greys, you need diversity in the genetics of a pony, including colour. The treasured Dun/Buckskin will not existed with out the Bay or the Crème gene. The minority colours suffer a worst fate the Chestnut, will never be judged correctly in the show ring, how quickly people forget “Thunderbolt”, Palomino the same, BEC again the same “1959 I believe saw Marconi take the yearling class at Clifden, entered as crème he was in fact a BEC”. Birth colour needs to be recorded so that people will know the true colour of their pony rather than the grey pony that stands before them.
anthony all your talk seems to revolve around shows…i think your missing the bigger picture. if greys as you said win most shows its because the owners are well in or have a better quality of pony…of most shows i saw this year i saw a good job done regardless of colour. i myself would prefer a good quality grey than a mediocre dun if i were to buy a pony….but yet most will go for dun because it has a good re-sale value. he who has an eye for a good horse disregards colour
currachmore cashel for example is everywhere nowadays in the breed…something you failed to mention. Carna bobby and Abbeyleix owen were for example foundation stallions for many connemara breeders…if that makes sense…when it wasnt both profitable or popular to own a pony..these stallions were available at the time and it was the done thing…word of mouth that they threw good stock and the numbers grew…..but capping a number of mares allowed to a stallion????? you cant be serious if you have a good broodmare your gonna want a proven stallion of good stock….show winner or not i might add
on an ending note…yes we have a soceity etc but at the end of the day were not professsionals were amatuers and i mean this as were only involved in ponys for the love of them. the big money is gone and maybe its a good thing cause things were gone daft..a bit of stability in prices would bring buyers back to sales.
Hi Tom,
I mentioned the shows only in a minor part of the comment I made. I don’t disagree with to the majority 2010 judging was fare. And yes the Grey pony will always look the best in a line up if of good quality. I do not doubt this, my point was a bit of colour is good for the breed and now at a time they there seems to be more and more greys, which a number of them will unfortunately develop melanoma’s in later life. This is why we need to keep a wider range of colour rather than narrowing it down. I my self have greys, bays, a dun and roan. So it not that I want the world to stop breeding grey ponies, it’s just a bit of colour never hurt anyone.
On Abbeyleix Owen and Carna bobby, I said there was disadvantages but also advantages to them and they had changed the face of the Connemara for ever, also the number of progeny they had was only a fraction of today’s stallions, this was my point what effect will today’s overused stallions have on the inbreeding rate in years if every 4th pony is out of them.
Of course, you are going to want to breed you mare to the best suited stallion for her to get the best result, but not ever one does this when they select a stallion. The point regarding the cap was based on inbreeding. But how can less know stallions have proven stock if they don’t get any of the top mares?
Someone also mentioned Hazy Dawn, I think it was Satu Hazy dawn was never over used, Hazy dawn had top quality mares all of the time the but he has had less than 50 foals and he is 26 years old. It was the progeny that have dominated in breeding in the last 20 years, thus they will add Hazy Dawn to the pedigree of the pony, but he him self was under used if anything!
So to refresh, my main point was not shows, although I mentioned them not about judging in mind but how they can have an effect on the following years mating.
My main point was the rate of inbreeding, and to keep diversity in the genetic make up of the Connemara pony. Which to me are of upmost importance?
Hello Tom,
I’d like to comment upon your statement that ‘we’ in the Society are only ‘amateurs’. What sort of a daft thing is that to say as an excuse ? Another case of moving the goalposts – what happened to ‘ we have been breeding these ponies for generations, and our fathers before us ‘, with the implication that ‘therefore we know all about them, and you folk west of the Twelve Bens know noything’ ?
If this ‘love of the pony’ was as real as it’s exponents would have us believe, it would extend to an appreciation of the Connemara in all parts of this island, and beyond. Instead, the CPBS, despite it’s broken promises to ‘educate the breeder’, would take heed of the research done by Deirdre Feeley and Sorrel Lambton, and actively promote uncommon bloodlines by taking account of them, especially at ‘inspection’. Also there needs to be a genuine effort to reverse the greying of the breed, not just for genetic and phenotypic variety, but for the health of every individual pony. Surely anyone who has ever lost a pony to melanoma, or to the dreadful conditions mentioned in this discussion by Sheila ( from New Zealand ), could not in conscience wish it on another ?? The CPBS might in future wish to test for cream ( to what ends, I wonder ? Don’t they think blue-eyed blondes attractive ?) but in fact they should better ask for grey zygosity testing, and sweet itch testing when it becomes commercially viable at DNA parentage testing. Dare I suggest that no colt who carries the potential to breed sweet itch should be considered as a sire ? Or even, that those existing sires who carry it should perhaps be gelded ??
what i meant by ‘we’ are only ‘amateurs’ was as follows….for example top class GAA players are still amatuers, no matter how good they are..there not professionals they have jobs outside of it, i didnt mean to discriminate against anyone.
as for a colt who passes the sweet itch gene ..should they be gelded? possibly not but i for one wouldnt bring my mare to him
Hi Tom,
None of us would take a mare to a horse with sweet itch, but how many of us know, that stallion ower is not going to broadcast the fact, and if the stallion is kept well and covered especially when they show, who’s going to know.
A test if possible at birth for all foals if there is one would have to be the way to go, as I’m sure there are breeders out there that are breeding from mares,but has it been proven hereditary?
When I was looking to buy a couple of fillies a few years ago, and had less knowledge on the breed then I do now, I picked the brains of well known breeders where I could- and was told to be careful of some well known stallions who seem to have quite high numbers of sweet-itch progeny.
I wonder if all the ponies are prone to this awful condition, and the environment ie. wet land trees, habitual scratching from seeing other ponies with sweet-itch scratching, is the deciding factor in whether the symptoms present or not.
A very good if not provocative comment, Anthony! Up beyond the Arctic Circle (well, not really – but almost!) Abbeyleix Owen may be a curiosity, but I’d like to ask the readers about Hazy Dawn – do you find him over-represented? And saying this – he is a FANTASTIC, beautiful, kind etc. stallion with amazing offspring, but I’ve started to find him becoming “hard to sell” in ponies’ pedigrees :/
Lovely suggestion about the grade A idea. The Connemara Pony is all about performance in the jumping arena, cross country, dressage or driving. A useful pony for every man, woman or child.
The Connemara is world renowned for it’s versatility, certainly, and that demands good temperament, soundness, good conformation etc., but I would fear that in the pursuit of sucess in the performance arena, we would see the Connie go the same way as the Irish Draught. IMO the seed corn must be maintained, and that is , the traditional ‘type’ pony, with power and, most importantly, good bone. If we lose them, we lose the breed.
I am from New Zealand and not tied up in any way with Breed Society politics in Ireland or anywhere else.
1. The in-breeding index is only a relevant statistic when calculated over a MINIMUM of 10 generations. The Irish on-line Connemara database is working on three-four generations. Statistically and scientifically = Epic Fail.
2. The colour ‘stallion lines’ are a crock of sh*t. WHEN correct statistical analysis methods are used (see 1 above), eg Blue Smokie is touted as an Orange Line stallion, however his back breeding statistics are as follows:
Cannonball 7.48081%
Carna Bobby 26.9386%
Carna Dun 14.1045%
Clonkeehan Auratum 12.6024%
Connemara Boy 3.73745%
There is more point in looking at the tail female line when ascertaining genetic worth/merit rather than tenuous and fallacious ‘stallion lines’. The most successful horse breeds – the TB and Arab have always put the importance on the tail female line.
Ultimately though, there is no point in breeding anything which is incapable of fulfilling the functions for which it has been bred. There are already genetic conditions in this breed which are known to be causing problems, but the existence of which is not being acknowledged by individual breeders and Breed Societies alike – Tracheal Collapse and Hoof Wall Separation Syndrome.
Regards
Sheila Ramsay
DVN (Hons) Massey.
It is true that the colour coding of stallion lines is now out of date, and were only practical as a useful tool for Mrs. Petch when she wrote her book ‘Connemara Pony Breeders Society 1923 – 1998′ some twenty years ago. Their only use now is as a loose guide to the top line.
Your comment about the mare lines is absolutely correct – as any breeder in Connemara will tell you. Every breeder wants their stallion – or indeed, any pony – to come from a good mare. It is their breeding practices that have made the Connemara arguably one of the most singularly successful pony breeds in the world, excelling in its fields of endeavour as much the TB and Arab’s do in theirs.
Your comment about the mare lines is absolutely correct – as any breeder in Connemara will tell you. Every breeder wants their stallion – or indeed, any pony – to come from a good mare. It is their breeding practices that have made the Connemara arguably one of the most singularly successful pony breeds in the world, excelling in its fields of endeavour as much the TB and Arab’s do in theirs.
If this is a true picture of Connemara breeding in Ireland why then is so much importance put on the sire line AND why therefore are certain sires being overused (to the proven detriment of the genepool)? The female lines are NOT being given due importance; if they were then the 3rd and 4th generation matings back to a dam sire line would not, be either de rigeur, or done in ignorance, because breeders are not using extended pedigrees when researching possible breedings.
The Connemara genepool is severely contracted already without exacerbating the problem whether through ignorance or greed.
Just as a point of interest, here in New Zealand our Connemara ponies are caught in a genetic time warp. 99% (of all 130 registered since 1974) would be 13.3 or under. They are the ‘old fashioned type’ typical of what was bred in Ire during the 1960′s; as such they would hardly appeal to breeders of the ‘modern’ type now being produced, but they ARE free of Tracheal Collapse Syndrome and HWSS. They are out successfully performing in open company in all fields of equestrian endeavour in this country.
regards
Sheila
Hi Sheila !
I got to visit the South Island in late 1989, and sadly did not get around to see and Connemaras, thoough we did go to one show and my feeling was that the ponies there seriously needed substance ! I am delighted to learn that so many NZ connies are old type. Smaller ponies are so seldom appreciated here that the inspection vet does not care to measure properly, and though I have several under 14.2, thank goodness, I find that they have been ‘measured’ nearer to 14.2 than they really are…
I can’t reply tho Sheila straight off atm – but just a question of definition: Please tell us what HWSS stands for. Because if I just google it, what I get is
HWSS Helpless When She Smiles (Backstreeet Boys song)
HWSS Hazardous Waste and Superfund Staff (EPA)
HWSS Hot Water Supply Systems (renewable energy; Somerset, UK)
HWSS High Wall Shear Stress
HWSS Ministry of Health, Welfare and Social Security (Greece)
– and I am not kidding, this sickness is so unknown at least up north that you would do well explaining :) Thanks!
Oh now I saw you mentioned it earlier – but as said, still unheard of: Hoof Wall Separation Syndrome. Geez, as if it wasn’t enough with laminitis??!
Classification Changes,Revised colt inspections , another suck it and see, lets give this a whirl and see how things pan out scenario, why do the Society keep moving the Goal posts?
Colt Inspections Easy Solution – Give provisional licences to 3 year old colts, who have passed a proper vetting procedure, with full x-rays, wind tests,and a confirmational inspection, for those who want to breed from their colts before they are tried on their own mares.
At full maturity, with either a strong showing record or true performance credentials in open competition grant a full Breeding Licence. Grant Elite status on their ability to pass on their traits and abilities to their progeny – A stallion can only be judged a true Stallion by what he Leaves on the ground !!!!! How can a colt at 3 years old be judged a Stallion, it’s a scandal, and doing Breeders a dis-service.
A colt was recently passed over at Ecclesfield, as reported in the Farm Week, as been immature, of coarse he was, he was a 3 year old !!!! and was’nt presented like a show bullock!
Type- That very much depends on the inspector you get on the day, if they are into performance then you’ll be fine with your taller, lighter performance type that you have carefully bred from the T/b lines that the society introduced themselves to improve the quality of the breed.
If you get a Showing inspector then he will want bone, bone, bone and plenty of bulk or I think they like to call it substance !!!!!!!!
The Breeders themselves will vote with their feet……Give them credence most have a brain and will breed from the best that offer the greatest financial reward when the time comes to sell their foal, they are not stupid. They will breed to Top Show Ponies who prove themselves in the showrings around the country, or the ponies who are proving they can compete at the top levels over the jumps.
Let them pay their stud fees and make their own choices. A pot luck colt inspection at a one day regional centre is a joke, and then to have the gall to ask people to travel their colts to Clifden for a part two inspection is discrimination, and totally wrong especially in the current financial climate, for what? to jump a metre upright and a spread, big deal, that’s not much proof of a future stallions worth, is it?
Ponies are difficult to sell as it is – how dare the Society downgrade ponies this way,with the new system, fillies or colts, whats a Grade 3 worth? were do breeders go with them?
Grade 3 should only be for animals that have failed a vet, as unsound for breeding purposes.
The big money for any Connemara with a Green Book has gone, the days of people buying a few mares and throwing out a newly graded stallion with them, will do nothing for the breed, theres a glut of ponies in the country, because of past breeding policies, and over production.
If there are to be changes, be radical, do the job properly now!!!!!!! no more trying things to see how it goes.
Why are the Connemara Society allowing the Department of Agriculture to pay REPS TO FARMERS TO BREED CONNEMARA PONIES, under the rare breeds scheme??????? Whats that about? RARE!!!!! I DON’T THINK SO……………..
Hi Tom,
really enjoying the website, congratulations to you and the lads.
Coming from a tb background and being relatively new to connemaras, I find a few aspects difficult to understand; ie, grading and inspections, why not let the market decide the value of a breeders stock, especially in this financial climate, the breeder will very quickly find out the grading or value of their stock. Secondly I noted a figure of 45,000 euros paid by the society in legal fees, this is a gross misuse of members funds, half of this figure would pay for the publishing of an updated volume of the studbook, which I think is far more important to the breed.
The new system of mare grading is very poor and i think will be detrimental to the breed in the long run, an animal getting one mark in the section marked poor, is automtically grade three, Which effectively means she is lost to the studbook,this inspection is carried out, subjectively on walk, trot and conformation; nowadays all these inspections take place in equestrian centres with excellent facilities, why not give pony owners the option of letting their fillies be assesed loose as well, how an animal canters is usually a very good indicator of athletisim and jumping potential.
Stephen.
Have to agree in the main with Jacqui and Stephen above. I travelled to two colt inspection centres purely as an objective observer to see what type of colt inspectors were passing or what seemed to be their selection criteria. It seemed to me that the panel were trying too hard not to favour either the taller, lighter more athletically shaped pony; or the closer to the ground, heavier, rounder show type. As a consequence they passed a lot of non descript average ponies. Both good show types and good athletic types were cast aside too easily. A case of political correctness, by not passing much of an obvious type, led to lesser ponies getting through. Straightness, bone, length of rein, power of quaters and good feet all seemed to elude judges eyes. In 15 years I never saw such rubbish pass, while better animals failed.
I advise all to ignore current system and view all grades of stallions when selecting for their mares. By only giving 3 weeks notice of change of procedure and holding final inspection in Clifden, perhaps the better colts are scattered around the country having not gone forward into procedure at all. After all, is this not what the council were aiming for? With a glut of ponies around they now want to discourage breeding by not passing anymore stallions of any worth. The pool of better stock in the Connemara area will then increase in value again.
Fergus makes a very important point to mare owners when selecting a stallion, that they should not act like sheep and use the latest pin up, but cast their net a bit further, use the CPBS database to theiradvantage and check for the percentage inbreeding of any of their proposed mating plans.
On the grading of mares, I feel the society needs to do more research; a person purchasing a young connemara filly should not find themselves after grading, in the position of owning an animal that is grade 3 and effectively valueless.Under EU regulations an animal registered in any recognised stud book cannot be discriminated against on the basis of a subjective examination by a lay technician, but only by a qualified vetinary surgeon on clinical examination. There is no real difference between grade 1 and grade 2, except that to people who may not feel comfortable using their own judgement and eye to select a suitable pony, a case that springs to mind is the stallion Builders Delight, a grade A pony who has jumped internationally, who for some bizarre reason is grade 2.
In these economically difficult times, many people will not send as many mares to stud, whilst this is to be applauded as resposible behaviour, it has it carries its own risks, mainly a further narrowing of the gene pool. IE, there were many beautiful mares out at shows last year, but if you look more carefuly at the results, there is a pattern; Castle Cailin Ard, Coosheen Lisa, Village Linnet and the magnificent Village Heather, are all from the same female line, Sean Dunne’s Banks Vanilla was the exception to list of champion mares from 2010.
Are The Connemara Breeders Society following the directives laid down by the E.U?
If not, surely they are not legal?
I would especially like to know how the CPBS can possibly insist that ” the applicant ” for pony inspections must sign that they “accept as final and binding” the decision of the inspectors. Any legal eagles out there ??
It is a contract that is binding to BOTH sides; you have the right to put the animal up for re inspection. You could legally query the competence of the inspection if the judges had no relevant qualification, or certification. It is the resposibility of the society to provide an inspection , that is fair , balanced and competently carried out and ensure that the judges have proper knowledge of points system being used.
Stephen
Although Tom mentioned the the GAA players are amateaurs, surely they are managed by professionals, or hire professionals when needed.
Also I feel like Finola that Inspectors should be able to discuss with breeders their reasons for making their decisions.
If not on the Day- then by sending them something in writing after the inspection.
There should be no confering between inspectors or the presenting person at all at the inspection.
Passports should not be handed to the inspectors on arrival at the venue, but should be lodged in the office, hopefully inspectors will not then be swayed by each other, the owner, or the breeding on the Pedigree.
Better still, Scrap classicfiations altogether and do as Maria mentioned, all Grade 2, and then with Show wins or Performance upgrade- Simple and everyone is playing off a level field, like the GAA !!!!!!!
Stephen,
Sorry another reply, if there is no real difference between Grade 1 and Grade 2 Stallions why are the Society bothering to Grade them?, It’s hard enough to get stock passed as it is – so why would you cover a Grade 1 mare with a stallion that the Society have deemed only a Grade 2 standard?
Simple, grading or inspecting is means of revenue !
Hear, Hear now we are down to the nitty gritty! It’s all about money.
I can’t understand that suddenly they are able to produce passports and related services, for less.
When times were good and people asked why everything was so expensive- we were told that they were expensive to produce, suddenly the prices are down – strange that!
Is it true that the inspection system that was used this spring has NOT been approved by the ministry in Ireland?
How are the overseas societies going to be able to follow a system of inspections changing every year?
Good Question? but sorry I’ve no idea, that’s something that a Council member would have to answer for you.
Anyone out there who can answer this?
OH SO QUIET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You’re Probably right Fergus, The move to Clifden for part two of the inspection process for colts, will put many people in the rest of the country off trying to produce a future stallion, maybe as you said that is their intention.
The short notice given to colt owners was truly disgracful, they did’nt have time to complain.
I can understand that maybe they wanted to combine the inspection with the Spring Show, but that only suits the Breeders in and around Galway.
It was mentioned that Henry O’Toole said that maybe all Connemara Stallions that are Grade A Showjumpers could be approved as Class 1, a great idea !
Therefore ability will override type, so if these stallions can be approved, why are we failing fillies on type?
THERE IS NO TYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can there be with such a variation of stock in the studbook, Welsh Cobs, Arabs, Throughbreds, and Irish Draughts mixed with the ponies of no breeding recorded at the inception of the stud book, each of these breeds have brought something to the lines that follow them down through the years.
These breeds were introduced by the Society themselves, they encouraged the mare owners to breed from them!
All our ponies are PUREBRED ponies, and should not be classified on type at all, as I said there is no true type, but the Society are trying to create a type now……….. at the expense of the breeders.
The Welsh Cobs gave the pony Substance, the Arab pretty heads and movement, the T/B Stamina and Quality, and the Irish Draught height and bone. What more can we ask for, surely the pony has it all.
No pony should be anything less then Grade 1, including the Blue Eyed Creme.
Grade 2 should only be for Geldings, or ponies with serious confirmational defects that may be hereditary and therefore detrimental to the breed.
The Classification system is a directive brought in by Europe, how it is applied is entirely up to the breed Societies themselves. Maybe it’s time for another change?
Hear, hear !!!!
Having owned and bred Connemara Ponies since 1961. I really feel that the time has come to end inspections.Keeping my comments short and simple. All colts should be submitted for a very through vetting. All ponies go into Grade 2. Colts, Fillies and Geldings.
Proven Performance and Progeny will bring them up to Grade 1.
I think the new Good, Average,Poor system is a disaster.Colts Madness Another fine mess the Society has got into!
I agree with Jacqui and Stephens comments. Also Henry O’Toole The Grade A’s are the breeds best PR internationally
Yes Maria, that would be a great system, nice and simple. Hear Hear !!!!!!!
I think the connemara society should issue a detailed questionaire to all members on inspections. The membership are clearly unhappy with the new system, the inspection teams need to be accountable to the exibitors on the day of inspection. An appeals process available on the day if inspection are the way forward (the membership should decide if inspections are the way forward).
The market will be the real decider. The connemara pony society ‘inspection committee’ put the new system in place – there were an number of council members not in favour. What council members were on the inspection committee headed by Henry O’Toole?
Hello Suzanne,
I don’t know who is on the Inspection Commitee, or who the inspectors are, It would be good if The Council would consider their members, but this would be a totally new concept for them.
So maybe we should be posting directly onto the Connemara Breeders Face book Page, the Society must be made aware of how it’s members and Breeders are feeling, unless we speak openly with them, this system will continue.
Many members are worried that to voice their opinion, if it is conflict with the Breed Society, will result in possible repercussions when they bring out stock for future inspections, or that their ponies will be passed over in the showring by the Society Judges.
Unless this subject is addressed quickly – It may result in a break in the Society, it could end up going the same way as the Irish Draught Society, and that would not be good for the breed.
Stephen mentioned Builders Delight, what a waste!
I had thought of using him on a mare last year, but was advised by a prominent Breeder, ( in confidence, of coarse,) that his stock will not be passed, because he has a gap close up in his pedigree, I checked the database he only has two purebred ponies registered, neither has been brought out for inspections, I thought it strange with his jumping credentials, I rang the Society who told me as Grade 2 his stock were eligable for Grade 1 as long as they meet the breed standard, so why is he not been used, I chose not to risk him, just incase the rumours were true! The gap in his pedigree did’nt bother me, but I certainly did not want to produce a foal that had no possible chance of recieving a Grade 1 at the inspections!
See Connemara Breeders Facebook Page, I’ve put up a post, on this subject, It’s no good chatting among ourselves, and moaning about the classification system, if we are not prepared to be open about our views on this subject, things will stay the same.
On the whole the Society do a great job, tireless and thankless most of the time, and I’m not knocking them, but I definately say NO …….. to The Classification System as it stands.
Hi, all,
This is Joanie McKenna from the United States, and I applaud Maria and everyone else on this thread for arguing to throw out some or all of the inspection process. I’ve been trying for years to get someone here to listen to me and lost almost all my friends in the Connemara society as a result. But, it’s not going to stop me from pursuing this cause. The current system is just plain wrong. In fact, I’m sure, in the not-too-distant future, someone will be able legally to take down the whole thing, and how much are breed societies going to want to spend trying to defend a practice that should have died a long time ago?
Quit throwing away money on this useless process, and let the market decide what horses are best. The top animals will prevail. Lesser animals will not be marketable, and people will quit breeding those animals.
Especially in these financial times, we can’t afford to be spending money on questionable procedures or producing animals that get through an inspection but can’t do anything else.
It’s essential that breeders produce ponies that can fulfill their purpose and be sold. I can name dozens of horses that I’ve ridden over the years that I didn’t think were worth the effort of training because they were sullen or completely unbalanced, and all of them have passed inspections here. Many were owned by people involved in the inspection process.
One of the things that breaks my heart is the plight of all the unwanted horses in the world right now. I can’t stand the thought of unwanted Connemaras being neglected or cast off, and poor quality ponies are more likely to land in this situation. As I write this, there’s a Connemara sitting at the local Humane Society in need of a home.
Inspections are purely political. Animal breeding should not be politicized. It’s time to end the process, and bravo for all of you speaking out.
Joanie
Totally Agree, Joanie thanks for your input, welfare is a big issue here in Ireland too, lots of horses and ponies are going to slaughter!
The Breeders Society in Ireland allow The Dept. of Agriculture to grant payments to farmers to breed Connemara Ponies, under a scheme to encourage the breeding of Rare native animals – there’s nothing rare about the Connemara pony here in Ireland. How much sense does that make!
By all means encourage and offer support to farmers to breed rare native breeds, IF THEY ARE RARE!!!!!
There is already an overproduction of ponies, the promoting of further breeding with financial incentives is actively adding to the problem.
I have written to the Dept. of Agriculture on this matter, but as yet no response-
great site Tom and Eamonn alot of work gone in to it
my day wouldn’t be complete without a visit here.
Grading system is flawed but making every pony grade 2 until proven in show results or performance wont help, I like the grade A status for proven performance sires though.
but seems we are trying to breed 2 different ponies to me. the performance type isn’t always show material, and the show winner doesn’t always make a good broodmare, we are all amatuers here coz we’re breeders and as breeders we’re replacing natural selection/survival of the fittest with our personal choices of stallion etc. I have no answer to grading system but do not understand a grade 2 stallion and grade 1 mare being able to produce grade 1 progeny to be honest,pass or fail, any flaws out of contention. we also need to reduce risk of unwanted ponies/horses of all types. And grading will only lessen the gene pool further, as grade 1′s can only mix so much and any other grade will be regarded as lesser value and not worth the risk in my opinion. i do not pretend to understand the grading system my opinion is formed from my understanding only. thanks Tom, Eamonn, MacDara and Joe MacLochlainn for your help and work for the “pony” we all love so much
Tom,
You have lots of knowledge from your years of involvement in the Connemara pony society.
We are all ‘green horns’ here, from your experience within the society what is the way forward?
Money – is the big thing?
But surely, there is a way forward(out side the current system, which clearly is causing a lot of dissent).
Susanne, bear in mind Tom can only give his own personel opinion – and also has to abide by The Articles of Association.
12(b)A member shall at all times act in the best interests of the Society at Public meetings or in print, sound and visual media.
I just hope the best interests of the Society themselves, Their Politics,and policies for helping to increase revenue etc, do not over-ride the best interests of the Pony itself, which at the end of the day is surely what The Connemara Breeders Society should have as their main priority!
Appreciate what your saying Jacqui but Tom has a much better knowledge of the workings of the Connemara Pony Society council and its Articles of association through his years of involvment.
The whole ‘stallion inspection’ debate is well discussed over the last number of years, with little change. The points I heard at the 2011 AGM and on the site here, are the same which were discussed 10 years ago. The change in 10 years appears to be court case after court case.Are we as a society and membership moving in the right direction?
Maybe Tom could also answer Satu’s Question, have the inspections in their present format been passed by the Ministry Of Agriculture?
This is the only Native breed with a closed studbook, that operates an Inspection process for the progeny of animals that are the result of matings from registered stock.
Other Native Studbooks only classify progeny, that have been bred from their studbooks partbred register, if the animals meet the breed standard and can prove parentage, ie a percentage of purebred blood, then they are allowed to Register their animals with the Breed Society in a separate section of the studbook.
The Connemara Studbook has been closed for nigh on 50 years!
The Inspection process for Progeny of Registered stock, with generations of backbreeding does not make sense, and does nothing but downgrade purebred stock.
There will probably be many more court cases in the future, unless this practise is stopped.
Ok Tom, so over to you -
Hi Folks,
I have been reading the comments with interest. I’m in my second year off the council so am not totally up to date on things, but re. inspections, they have, of course, been agreed with the department – of this I’m certain. Also, I’m a fan of the inspection system, and see it as a way of constantly improving the pony. When viewed in a historical context, inspections have created today’s pony and must be viewed as a success. I think the Council are spot-on with their recognition of the performance ponies and I gather that it is currently discussing the issue in order to agree the standard at which a performance stallion attains Class 1 status.
On the colour issue: Dun, Bay, Black, Grey, or Brown doesn’t make a better pony, but undoubtedly the market always favours a Dun – even though the showring may not. Hope this is of interest, keep the comments coming!
Tom.
Yes Tom, I agree the inspections at the inception of the stud book when looking for suitable foundation stock, has made the pony what it is today,
but could you elaborate more on what you feel the fairly recent classification or grading process, has done to contribute to the success of the breed,
Myself I believe the Connemara pony has enjoyed it’s recent successes, in much the same way as any other section of the Irish Equine Industry, because the money was available, owning a horse, or buying the children a pony was seen as a status symbol, more money, more buyers.
The money is’nt there anymore, and neither are the high numbers of buyers from home or abroad, the farmers were buying to claim their payments, but even they are begining there is no foal market, anyone thinking of running on a few youngsters – will think twice in the current financial climate, especially when they know that after keeping a filly foal for 2 years, or a colt for 3 years, that it can be downgraded, and immediately become of almost no value, It’s called negative equity in the property world- more spent than gained!!!!!!!!!
Tom,
It’s time for the June bank holiday ashbrook poll. The wording might include some of jacqui and your comments
‘The Connemara pony stud book has been closed for nigh on 50 years. One might believe, inspections have created today’s pony and must be viewed as a success or the inspection process for progeny of registered stock, with generations of backbreeding does not make sense and does nothing but downgrade pure stock’
The result would be interesting.
Hi Susanne,
It would be interesting but how many breeders have internet access, and how many breeders that do, actually visit this site regularly? Would be Fun anyway!
It would be much better if The Society themselves bit the bullet, and asked the membership to vote by post, but that is unlikely to happen!
Hello Tom,
I think I am correct when I say the inspection process being carried out, is purely a procedure that the Society themselves have instigated, there is no E.U requirement for a studbook to inspect purebred animals.
In these difficult times, it only adds to the expenses of pony producers.
You say that you feel this system is a way of improving the characteristics of the pony, so therefore you must also agree that Class 1 is a better pony, then a Grade 2 or 3
This divides the studbook into high grade and lower grade ponies, and effectively downgrades stock that have been bred from Purebred registered stock – based on the preferences of the inspectors on the day! Yes the E.U insists on a form of classification – but that could have been done just as easily, by height: Grade 1: 13.2 and under, Grade2: 13.2 -14.2 Grade 3 Overheight.
Without the need to inspect, (just with a vets height cert.)
Without the discrimination of the system presently in place.
Everyone could breed and keep the type of pony they prefered, this type of system would not discriminate against any pony, Showing classes could also follow this system, there would be no problems with smaller ponies being shown matched against their taller counterparts.
Showjumping ponies are already using the height system, so no problem there.
Performance: At last, it was a long time coming! You mention Stallions being upgraded once they have attained proven performance, will that apply even though they do not show the true breed characteristics, or TYPE that is so important to the Society, If this system is also used on mares which it would have to be, then by the time a mare has gained a performance record, she is becoming aged to breed from!
As a previous council member, maybe you can also shed light on the reasoning behind the The Society allowing the Ministry Of Agriculture to classify the Connemara pony a Rare Breed and continuing to allow financial incentives to be paid encouraging further breeding, in a market that is now saturated, the pony is no longer rare- if it ever was.
Yes to helping farmers, but give help where it’s needed!
Oh and Thank You for Responding, though until, the Society start responding themselves to members, the arguments and legal battles will continue!
Hi guys,
Thank you all for taking the time to comment on the post – some of you may have noticed that I have removed any mention of specific ponies from some comments made. It seemed unwise to name particular animals in a debate on inspections.
The comment limit has been reached, I’m afraid, but feel free to comment on any of our other posts!
@Susanne, we do plan on some new polls, but not until the summer months when I’ll have time to look after them. (To answer the question posed: we get about 3,300 unique visitors a month, visiting about 8,500 times, so I’d say our cross-section is pretty good :) )